Your Medication Isn't Working–Now What? A Dive into Personalized Medicine

Tamar: 0:00

Meanwhile, the patients have all these side effects and they're still going through pain and it's not being managed and they're miserable. So just knowing this off the bat could save the patient from so much misery.

Jessica: 0:16

Hello everyone. It's Jessica here. I have another really wonderful interview to share with you guys. Again, just as a quick reminder, these interviews are meant to help you decide and figure out for yourself whether the people being interviewed feel safe to you or not, whether you have access to them or you're able to work with them or not. You want to pay attention to whether this person makes you feel safe, to help you feel safe within your own body, so that you can start learning how to empower yourself. So I just wanted to remind you of that while you listen to today's episode. So today we are going to be talking to Dr Tamar Lawful. She is a distinguished doctor of pharmacy and esteemed graduate of the University of the Sciences from Philadelphia College of Pharmacy. She's a licensed pharmacist in California, new Jersey and Pennsylvania. So just as a quick recap in terms of what you're going to hear about in today's interview, you're going to be hearing about how medications affect our genes and how genes affect medications in order to help them work or not work. You're going to hear about what pharmacists actually do behind the scenes to ensure accurate dosage of the medications that you are prescribed from doctors. They do a ton that I think most people don't know about. You're also going to hear about what traditional insurance does not cover yet and why this specific thing can be the answer to all the side effects and the non-results that you are seeing from certain medications that you're taking. How decreased kidney function affects toxicity in your system and creates two more side effects from your medications. You're going to hear about how genetic enzymes affect what medications work for you and the testing procedure that most doctors don't even know about that you can do just one time to learn about what medications do and do not work specifically for you. And then she also focuses on empowering her clients to take responsibility for their own health and well-being. And then she goes into how nutrigenomic testing and coaching with her customized meal plans can actually help you get off your medications and improve your health. And then Tamar also shares an example based on her own nutrigenomic testing results. Then you want to make sure you stay until the very end, because she shares her top tips for chronic pain. And then she also shares a free gift that she has prepared for all of us listeners to this podcast, so make sure you stay until the very end. Now let's continue the introduction to Dr Tamar Lawful. As a licensed advanced practice pharmacist with certifications in pharmacogenomics and nutritional genomics, Dr. Lawful expertly leads as the CEO and founder of Life Balance. Incorporated by seamlessly blending her passion for nutrition, genomics and pharmacy, she embarks on a bold mission to de-prescribe unnecessary medications, champion nutrition, inspire healthy lifestyle transformations and emphasize the significance of self-love to help women regain and preserve their health. Dr Lawful's signature InH er Glow Health Coaching program harnesses the power of nutrigenomics and pharmacogenomics to tailor client goals, resulting in remarkable success stories. She has assisted numerous women suffering from diabetes, hypertension and hormonal disorders and not only losing weight, but also discontinuing medications. Dr Lawful is a dedicated consultant who specializes in assisting pharmacists in establishing their own integrative health and wellness pharmacy practices. She provides comprehensive training in nutritional genomics and the implementation of her unique signature protocol. By placing a strong emphasis on nutrition and lifestyle modifications, Dr. Lawful aims to magnify the influence of health care professionals on enhancing patient outcomes and overall well-being. Based in California, she cherishes her roles as a mother and enjoys playing the guitar, indulging in spa days, savoring food and embracing the beach life. Alright, without further ado, let's get into our interview with Dr. Tamar Lawful. Hi, Tamar, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate you.

Tamar: 4:52

Hi Jessica. Thanks for inviting me and having me.

Jessica: 4:55

Yeah, absolutely. I am really excited about our talk today because even when we first met and this was months ago you blew my mind with what you can do and it's going to be so helpful for the chronic pain community, so I'm really excited to have you on. Why don't we start with having you share your story of how you came to do what you do? Oh, wow.

Tamar: 5:16

Well, yeah, I'm a doctor of pharmacy and going on 19 years now. About five years ago, I got to the point in my career where I felt like I wasn't really helping my patients. You know, yes, I looked at their medications to make sure it was the right one If they had diabetes they're on the right medications and help the doctors adjust the doses to make sure they didn't have side effects and there were no drug interactions. And I was in a hospital setting. But these patients, they will still come back 30 days later, 60 days later. Their health wasn't improving and the only solution was to add on more medications, and that didn't sit right with me. Something else had to be done. So at that point I started searching, trying to think of what else can I do as a healthcare professional to truly help people get better? And that led me to nutrition, which led me to genomics, which and then, combined, is neutral genomics, which is a study of how food affects our genes. And then there's also pharmacogenomics, so it's how medications affect your genes or impact your genes can actually have on how medications work. So it was gold, like that was the solution, to combine the pharmacogenomics and the neutral genomics. So I created my company, life Balance, where I serve as a health coach to women with certain chronic illnesses like diabetes and high blood pressure, and, of course, they have pain as well, related to these conditions and the poor nutrition that they actually have. So with my health coaching program, I'm able to help these women follow their DNA. You know their DNA is a guide to. It actually tells them how they can get better, and I'm able to do that through those genetic testing and provide them a guide to better health.

Jessica: 7:19

Amazing. Can you help us understand how genes and the drugs, drug interactions in the genes and how nutrition can also affect? I'm guessing you're talking about gene expression.

Tamar: 7:34

Yes, definitely gene expression. So when it comes to the medications, we have systems and processes that go on in a body. So when you take a medication, it has to be broken down into the active ingredient for some medications. But we have enzymes in our bodies that do that and, depending on your genetic makeup or expression, you may not have that enzyme, may not be working appropriately to convert the medication into the active form. For example, if you take a pain medication and your body can't convert it to the active form of that medication, guess what's going to happen? You're still going to be in pain. The medication is not going to work, right. So what's going to happen? You're going to take your doctor, who's going to prescribe more and more and more of it, and you know what? The only thing you're going to get is more side effects. So genetically, you may not be able to convert these medications into active form, though it's not going to be effective. And also, on the other hand, your conversion process might happen so fast that you get more of the medication in your system than you should. So you're potentially getting double the dose that someone that has a normal processing of that medication gets, and that's another way you can have increased side effects too. So the genetic test will actually tell you that your genetic expression based on your genetic expression, this medication will not be safe for you. You're more likely to get side effects from it, and but the best part of the results is that it tells you what the alternative is, what would work. So this would be a great tool for physicians when they want to initially prescribe medications for their patients. There won't be any guessing, there won't be any errors and reduced drug side effects, because right away they know what the best option is for their patients. And you asked about the nutrition part of it.

Jessica: 9:39

Yeah, but hang on. So, going to the medication part, I was just thinking that, for example, someone like me yes, we can say that, ok, I'm smaller, but if you were to give me a certain dosage of a pain medication, my reaction to it would be very different from someone else's, whether they're bigger or their genes are different. Is that right, yeah?

Tamar: 10:02

So various factors play a part in how we respond to medications. One of them is a gene. Also our body weight male, female our renal function, our kidneys working appropriately or not. So there are so many factors that go into that and that's what pharmacists look at. We look at all of that kind of like a side note. So people might wonder, nurses might wonder oh, why has it taken a pharmacist so long to verify this medication in a hospital setting? That's because we have to check everything. We're checking your kidney function, your liver function, your EKG, to make sure your heartbeat is regular and that nothing is prolonged to prevent any potential side effects, or even deadly side effects can happen for medications if we don't do those checks. So there's a variety of things, but when it comes to weight, it's mainly a huge impact when we're talking about pediatric patients and the elderly when it comes to weight based on medications.

Jessica: 11:07

Oh my gosh, that was gold. Because I don't think a lot of people understand what pharmacists do. I think most people literally think that pharmacists look at the label of the drug, they count the pills, they put it in the bottle and then they give it to you over the counter. But you guys are doing so many things behind the scenes, like, for example, liver function or kidney function. Kidneys are used to filter out toxins, right? So if your kidneys are not operating as well you said kidney earlier right? Yes, yeah, so like if your kidneys are not functioning at their best, what happens then?

Tamar: 11:42

for example, so some medications are removed through the kidneys, right? So if your kidneys are not removing the medications appropriately, it's going to accumulate in your body and you're going to have more side effects. So for example, say it's a medication like gabapentin Mm-hmm. Um, that has to be dose based on someone's renal function. If they're getting like 600 milligrams three times a day and they're they have poor renal function, they're going to feel horrible, they're going to probably be tired and groggy all the time and so they're just more prone to having those side effects because they might only be getting 600 milligrams, but to them and I might actually be 1200 milligrams. Their bodies just holding on to it and you take more and they're holding on to that.

Jessica: 12:36

Yeah.

Tamar: 12:38

Okay.

Jessica: 12:38

Another thing that I think a lot of people don't know is that the medications that we take is not the active thing that is being used in our bodies, that's meant to do what it's supposed to do.

Tamar: 12:51

That's right For the yeah, for some medications. So for the most part, medications have to be converted into another form. When you take it, it goes through, the liver has to be broken down and liver into the active form. So that's why you find different versions of medications, like there is. They might have Claritin, which it has to be converted into the active form Right. Then they've created another medication which is active form of Claritin. So for people who may be genetically impacted, they may not have that enzyme to convert Claritin into an active form, then that medication that is already the active form will be the best one for them. But no one really knows that until they get tested right. It's just, oh, trial and error. Let me see if this one works and see what happens. But yeah, or even some pain medications, they have to be converted into the active form to actually take its effect.

Jessica: 13:51

See this is like it's mind blowing, like I don't even. I'm in healthcare and I don't even know all the full details of this. So can you imagine the patients that we're treating, the clients that we're seeing every single day? It's like this is valuable information and doctors don't. It's not that they're not trying to teach us. It's that a lot of times their doctors don't have time to explain all the things that they're doing, to explain all of this right? So they just kind of have the blanket statement of we'll just try this medication first and see if it works and then, if it doesn't, we'll try a different one.

Tamar: 14:22

Meanwhile the patients have all these side effects and they're still going through pain and it's not being managed and they're miserable, you know. So just knowing this off the bat could save the patient from so much misery. And the medication that specifically comes to my mind is coding Like coding is not active form of the pain medication. It has to be converted into morphine, you know. So we have codeine out there, we have morphine out there. I don't see coding use that often, unless it's like a combination product like the hydrocodone.

Jessica: 14:56

Right.

Tamar: 14:58

And in Tylenol for the like, the more co-opercase. If it's percocet, it will be oxycodone. But, but yeah, so someone's taking codeine and they're not getting. They're not getting any relief from pain. It's possible that their enzyme genetically they have the enzyme that's just not converting it well into morphine, and morphine will be a better option. But we can do the test and find that out before we even order the codeine, right?

Jessica: 15:26

Yes, so are you telling me also that the testing for these kinds of enzymes to see whether you even have the enzymes to break down the drugs that are the medications that the doctors are prescribing is that not testable in like a regular blood test or in a regular doctor's office?

Tamar: 15:43

No, and you know, I don't believe a lot of doctors are aware that they can do it. I don't believe a lot of doctors are aware of it. So it's a. It's a cheek. It can be a blood sample, but it can also be a saliva sample. So you just do a cheek swap and patients can do it in a doctor's office. They can do it. The test kit can be sent to their home, my clients. The kit goes to their home and they just do the swab in their cheek both cheeks and ship it off to the lab, get the results. I get the results and I make an appointment with them and go over it with them. It's a one-time thing. You never need to do it again. The results are not gonna be any different. It's one time and they can take that report with them, show their doctors or I'll send it over to their physician's office if they wanna have that on file and they'll know what medications will be the best for their client, their patients.

Jessica: 16:37

Right, amazing. So for someone who has chronic pain let's say, someone who has chronic pain, maybe they've already gone through the ringer with a bunch of different kinds of pain medications and none of them seem to be working they would be perfect, like the perfect kind of person to reach out to you. I mean even better, as someone who's doing it preventatively right, without having to be put on all the medications and go through really bad side effects and things like that. But if someone has tried a bunch of different medications, pain medications and they're wondering why don't the ones that I take work, then they would be reaching out to you and then tell us the process of what happens when they reach out to you.

Tamar: 17:16

Yeah. So when they reach out to me, I do take a full medication and medical history with them. In my practice I don't accept insurance, so my service is cash pay. It's essential to be tricky because their insurance may not cover it and if they get it done with, say, I did accept insurance, they got it done with me. Most insurance companies want a medical reason why they're getting this test done, versus, oh, I'm just curious, I wanna see what it is. So most of my clients do come to me because, yeah, they are curious, they've been on a lot of medications and now they just wanna know. They want this report. So I do take a full medical history, medication history, if I notice anything, because my pharmacist mind is never turned off. That's the beauty of my service is that I'm a pharmacist and a health coach and a nutritional genomic specialist. So, wearing all those hats and my mind is working when I review these charts and speak with these with my clients by the way, I call them clients, not patients, because my goal is to empower them to take control of their health and when someone believes that they're a patient, it's like the ownership to cure them or heal them, make them feel better, is on that practitioner. But my goal is to empower them to take accountability for the changes and actions and choices they make in their life when it comes to their health. So I tell them they're my clients, not my patients. I just wanted to let you know, because I do use the term clients a lot. So I'll go over the information with them and if I see anything that's a red flag, I do reach out to their physicians and let them know. I'm like you know drug interactions or medication section and be used together, so forth. So the tests once they sign up for my service, they get the test within three days, three business days. It takes about three weeks, three to four weeks to get the results and in my portal the company lets me know the results are in. I review those results and then I contact the client for an appointment and I go over those results with them. It's you know. Oh, I skip the part where they get the test sent to them and then to their home. They don't have to go to the doctor's office, they don't have to wait in line. Or you know, you have an appointment at eight o'clock and the doctor doesn't see you until 9.30. And so it's sent straight to their house and they can do this, while if they're not, they have questions on how to do it. I'm available to walk them through it and in three, four weeks they get those results and I go over it with them.

Jessica: 19:56

And then what is like an example of a client that you've worked with, who was able to work with you beyond just like the getting the test results?

Tamar: 20:07

Well, you know, for the for the pharmacogenomic testing, I just go over the test results with them. But an interesting story I have with one of the clients I had was she took the test because she just wanted to know. She suffered from depression for years and when she got the test results she pretty much cried because she realized all the medications that were listed under. Now this test, like I said, it's it's it's pain, but it also tells you other other medication, other medications that are used for other things. So for her was anti depressants, which some are used for pain as well. And she cried because in the section that told her the medications to avoid, those were all the medications that they gave her and each time that they put her and switch her to one of those medications, she ended up in a hospital. Oh my gosh. So she said, if I had had this test from the beginning, I would. It would have saved me those hospital visits and from the beginning the doctors wouldn't be able to put me on something that would have worked for one and for two. Avoid it, these side effects and her bad experience with these medications.

Jessica: 21:25

And the psycho emotional trauma of being in and out of the hospital and feeling like, oh my gosh, nothing's working. All they're trying all these different medications and I'm landing in the hospital every single time. It's traumatic, right, Definitely is.

Tamar: 21:39

And unfortunately, you know when, when people experience things like that, they lose their trust in the healthcare system, in their practitioners. So this is a great way also for that trust to be built and for patients to realize and feel like, okay, my, my physician can really help me and they're just not guessing. Because when that happens they feel like there is just they're just guessing what they're supposed to be on, you know.

Jessica: 22:06

Yes, yeah, and there's so many, so many people who think of their healthcare professionals, like you were saying, like Well, they're the healthcare professional they're supposed to fix me, right? I see these kinds of and I will call them patients in my job as a, as a home health OT. Yes, and and I think this is why you and I clicked to when we first met was because we're both so passionate about empowering human beings to take full responsibility of their own health and well being. We do have that power. We do have that responsibility.

Tamar: 22:41

Right, and I talk to other pharmacists, I tell them, you know, our, our role of any healthcare practitioner is just not to tell a patient that, hey, you need to get healthy, you need to eat better, you need to exercise. We have to show them how to do it. You have to show them how to do it.

Jessica: 23:01

Yes, my favorite one for the people with chronic pain is when the doctor is like you need to reduce your stress levels. Okay, bye, what does that even mean? How do I do that, right, yeah, yeah. So it's like people like you and I we're acting more like the guides, like we're not here to tell you what to do with your bodies and your minds, right, but we're here to guide you so that you can feel empowered within your own body and mind again.

Tamar: 23:31

Because once they know, they know, they'll know what to do. And, surprisingly, a lot of people really don't know. They don't know. They know there's was eat better. There's so much information out there, it gets overwhelming. It definitely is overwhelming. So how are they supposed to know exactly what they're supposed to do?

Jessica: 23:48

Right and then okay, so let's segue into, like the, the nutrigenomics part, since that was a nice little segue there. Explain the nutrigenomics part.

Tamar: 23:58

The nutrigenomics is is my heart. I absolutely love it as using it as a tool to help patients get off medications and improve their health. So, with the nutrigenomics reports, again going back to that's how your food affects your genes, right? So, genetically, our what we eat can affect the expression of our genes. So, for example, if you are, or vice versa. So, for example, I'll share my personal experience. I am, I'm, deficient in vitamin D. I've been as far as my whole life I've been deficient in the vitamin D, no matter what I do. You know my level is at 17 and it stays there, you know. So vitamin D is important for bone health. You know it can even affect mood. So depression, menstrual cycles, this it's involved in so many aspects because it's a hormone. It's actually a hormone. So my genetic test gave me the answer as to why I'm always low in vitamin D. So it turns out, going back to these enzymes that convert active into inactive or inactive. To active, my enzyme doesn't do it fast enough. It won't convert D3 into the active metabolite of vitamin D that we actually. That actually gives us the health benefits that we need. You know it will convert it, but very small amounts. So, as a result of that, I can't take the vitamin D amount that the average person takes. I need higher, significantly higher amounts of vitamin D to get my levels up. You know so. Understanding why my vitamin D levels were low helped me work with my provider to my physician to say, okay, let's think of what's our regimen going to be. This is what we need to do, and in three months we'll recheck and see how that goes. You know so. It's definitely a useful tool to identify the cause of certain issues that we might have with our health. So when you get this nutrigenomic report, it actually tells you pinpoints, what your main areas of focus need to be with your health. You know so. For example, it might say blood pressure is a major, is potentially a major issue for you. So it's not diagnosing you if any diseases, or it's just saying, based on these genetic expression, your body does not regulate blood pressure well as a result. One, you need to focus on eating these type of foods to make sure your blood pressure always stays in check. Two, you need to focus on these type of lifestyle changes. This is the best type of stress management for you, and it will list the yoga Pilates you know, walking, whatever it is. When it comes to exercise, it will say avoid this type of exercise because of X, y and Z. So for me, I love boot camp training Right. It gets my adrenaline going, I feel like I've accomplished a lot, you know, and I build my strength. But, based on my personal profile, I should not be doing high intensity interval trainings mainly, but twice a week. The rest of the time I need to be walking or doing yoga or swimming, though that type of physical activity will help me burn fat and lose weight better than high intensity workouts. So it even gets that specific and then, on top of that, it will tell you the type of supplements you may need. So when I coach my clients through their nutritional part of things, I am a huge advocate for the foods that you eat, giving you your nutrients, and there are some basic supplements that we may need in general. But I really try to work with them to change their eating habits so they can get the nutrients and vitamins that they really need from foods, versus having to buy all these supplements, because that defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do, which is get them off medications, and I don't want to switch out their medications for supplements.

Jessica: 28:15

Yeah, take out these five pills but take these other five supplements instead. Right, right, right, right, okay. And then can we go back to your example with the vitamin D. What kinds of did it tell you what kinds of foods that you needed to focus more on eating? That works for your genomics, yeah, so with depending on.

Tamar: 28:34

So I had an issue with oxidative stress and what else Oxidative stress really stuck out to me because it made so much sense with everything that was going on with me. So with oxidative stress you want to do, healthy fats you want to do. I have a lot of food allergies as well, which plays a. Oxidative stress plays a role in that as well. My body is constantly in a state of inflammation and that, by the way, leads into pain as well. Right, so I noticed, when I'm eating better, I don't have my joint pain in my knees when I'm eating the healthy fats and the carbs that are what we call, not, that are low glycemic, so they're not going to spike my blood sugar really high after I eat them. So, like sweet potatoes or good squash, and so vegetables pretty much you know our car vegetables or carbs, and a lot of people don't realize that they don't see veggies as carbohydrates and they are so healthy fats, the vegetables, the broccoli, the spits, the broccoli, the spinach, the asparagus onions Now, I don't like onions lesser cooked, so that's fine, there's still onions and I cook them. Fish, you know. And then, when it comes to to meats, you want to do the pastures, organic grass, fat or pastures meats, because they're a healthier source and you get a lot more vitamins and nutrients from them than you would the other sources of meat if you, if you are a meat eater. So those were some of the things that they that were recommended for me. When it came to the oxidative stress part of things, yeah, it's right, just right there in your results.

Jessica: 30:17

It's all part of the results that you get.

Tamar: 30:19

It's all right there just written out for you. And then, with my clients, I take it a step further. So once I get their nutrition test results, I set them up with a meal plan that actually matches their genetic test results. So their test results will tell them so the test tells them the top three things they need to really focus on to towards health improvement, and the one that's the highest priority. There's a company that is associated with the genetic testing company. They do meal plans. It will link their meal plan to that top priority based on a genetic test, and it has all the foods in there that they need to eat and delicious recipes. So then my patient, my clients, get that meal plan and whether they use it or not, it's up to them. They don't have to do the exact recipes that they don't want to, but it's there and it gives them an idea of all the types of foods that they can eat. That's better than McDonald's or Burger King cross-trainers.

Jessica: 31:19

And all the different kinds of recipes available to them too, using those specific food items. Can you share a little bit more about? Let's see what about your top one to three tips for someone with chronic pain.

Tamar: 31:34

Oh, my top one to three tips would be well, definitely, you need to have a pain management plan, so that's going to involve working with your doctor to make sure that they can get to the root cause of your pain, and that might involve different treatment options like physical therapy, medications, acupuncture and a lot of people use a massage and, as we mentioned earlier, stress can bring on a lot of pain, so stress reduction should definitely be part of that pain management plan, and it might seem counterintuitive. My second tip, but it's to stay active. I know it can be difficult when you're in pain to be active, but every little bit counts. Every little bit counts, and the more you do it, the more endurance you'll build and the easier it will be, and there are activities that can be low impact. Like I mentioned earlier, I had bad knees, so swimming is a low impact activity and be great for people with bad knees, and yoga is a good option as well, and part of that staying active and maintaining your healthy lifestyle definitely involves what you eat, your nutrition, because if you're not having a well balanced diet or nutrition, you're going to be lacking in certain vitamins, and the deficiency in those vitamins can also lead to pain. So that's something important to consider. It all ties in together and also, along with the healthy lifestyle, sleep. So a lot falls under the healthy lifestyle part of things. But you take one step at a time, a little bit each day, add on something else the next day and before you know it, it's going to be part of your lifestyle regularly. You're not going to think twice about it, it's just going to be what you do. And my third tip would be to get a support group. Get a support group. So I'm sure there are pain groups out there, support groups out there. So it's good to be able to connect to other people that can relate to you, to know that you're not alone in what you're feeling and what you're experiencing. And if you're one of those people that took the pharmacogenomic test and you can share that with your support group, but then you're helping everybody. You know you get that support, the emotional support, the mental support and learn ways to cope and cope with the challenges of pain management.

Jessica: 34:14

Ooh, that is so good. You mentioned sleep, with which a lot of people actually forget to think about. I mean, with pain it's hard, right, sleep, not great sleep and pain. And then I love that you talked about the connection piece feeling connected and belonging with other people. That has a huge impact on pain and depression and anxiety, which also tend to go hand in hand with chronic pain. And then your fourth tip, obviously, is to get tested with you to understand what is going on, especially for those of you guys who are taking so many different kinds of medications and having side effects that are not great, like work with tomorrow. Please, I beg of you, okay, great. And then in terms of your, I think you said that you had a freebie that you wanted to share with everybody listening. That would be helpful for them in terms of healthy lifestyle. I think it was yes there.

Tamar: 35:09

You know, when I began my business, I found and start working with clients. I found that the the root cause of a lot of the problems that they were having was the fact that they were not put in themselves first. They weren't doing a lot of self care and taking care of themselves. So I have a workbook that I created for those who feel that recognize that they do need the self care healthy habits, for it's a self care workbook. So within that workbook I'm giving you it's kind of homework, because self care is different for everyone, like what is self care to me is different with self care to you, right, jessica? And for the next person. So this workbook is designed to help you find, discover what you need for self care, because sometimes we don't know. For example, one of my clients. You know what she needed for self care. It was a shower to begin in her day. So she worked from home. So she was just get up, have breakfast, get on her computer and start working, but she felt horrible the whole day. So in our group coaching I worked with her to figure out what it is. What, what can you start with? What do you want? What do you feel you need that shower changed. Her whole day is set, her routine is that, her mood for the entire day, and from there she had a huge transformation in her train of thought and her motivation to even get healthy. Just taking a shower something that we do, we all do every day but for her, doing that at the beginning of the day made a huge difference and that was part of her self care routine. So the workbook is designed to to help you discover what it is that you need in your self care routine so that you can get on the track. So it's called healthy habits Happy life for women on the path to wellness.

Jessica: 37:12

I love it. I love all the water references to. I'm a. I'm a water baby. I grew up in the water, so swimming is my jam and taking showers is definitely one of my favorite parts of the day. So, yeah, so that water can be so cleansing right, it's almost like she needed just like that cleanse to like get a fresh start. It's like, okay, this is my home life, and then I take a shower and then I start my work day. Like it's like that was the thing that differentiated the two parts of her life, right? So many people needed that differentiation during COVID and the pandemic, right? Having that separation has been really important. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge. You shared so much with us today and I think there's so many, so many bits of information that lay people like we don't understand. We're not farmers, right, so we really do it like we didn't know these things right. So I hope the listeners today can get a lot of insight in terms, in terms of what's happening actually in the pharmacist's office downstairs at your doctor's office, you got CVS and Walgreens and to understand how your medications and yet the way that you eat and the self care activities that you participate in can really affect your pain levels, can really affect your well being, your psycho, emotional health, all the things right. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you.

Tamar: 38:40

You're welcome, jessica it's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Jessica: 38:45

Alright, you guys. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Dr Tamara Lawful as much as I enjoyed talking to her. She's truly. I'm just really grateful to be meeting so many kind hearted, knowledgeable and generous human beings who really care about empowering their people to feel like they have control and to feel like they have the power to change their lives and their well being and their health. So be sure to check out her work. I'm going to, of course, put her website in the show description, so make sure you scroll down to find that, and then her freebie, her workbook on self care, is also going to be linked down below as well. Next week we have Dr Brooke joining us. She is a chiropractor here. Her business is called Fresno family wellness and she offers yet another perspective on healing chronic pain, this time in regards to expecting and new and current mothers, as well as in pediatrics as well. So stay tuned for that one as well, and I'll catch you again next week. Thank you, as always, for listening. Have a great day. Bye, bye.